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Post by Madame Holmes on Nov 20, 2004 18:48:06 GMT -5
On that fateful night when Voldemort murdered Harry parents... why is it that Voldemort survived after attacking Harry? Why didn't he die? This is a question that JK said she has never been asked so I thought maybe we could bounce around some theories.
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Post by Lilah on Nov 21, 2004 15:40:30 GMT -5
Oh, oh, oh! *jumps up and down like Hermione* I have a theory to that... it's long and I saved it somewhere as word file... *goes looking*
Okay, this is rather long, so please stay with me.
I've been given the prophecy a lot of thought lately, mainly because JK is asked on her page if the prophecy could mean that Harry AND Voldemort are going to die in the end, and she is saying that the only thing she can say is that she has worded the prophecy very carefully. I think I now understand what exactly the power is that Harry has and Voldemort knows not. Also I think I finally found proof that Dumbledore is not telling the whole truth. I also found proof to why he is not doing it AND it makes not only perfect sense, it is also logical for him to make that decision. Know that this theory is formed out of facts. There are no "what ifs", there is nothing you have to imagine. I started dissecting the prophecy piece by piece. The prophecy is the only thing I can quote, because I know it by heart. THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD APPROUCHES... BORN TO THOSE WHO HAVE THRICE DEFIED HIM... BORN AS THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES... I pointed out before that this is not directly pointing at Harry. Dumbledore himself says that Harry's parents narrowly escaped Voldemort three times, which is not the same as defying him, but then it fits the rest of the theory and Harry IS indeed the hero of the story, so the prophecy very well could be about him. There is still a slight doubt inside me, but I think I'm wrong there, so we just take it. Harry's parents have thrice defied Voldemort and Harry is born on the last day of July (so as the seventh month dies). AND THE DARK LORD WILL MARK HIM AS HIS EQUAL... I still say that trying to kill someone can hardly be called marking as equal, more pick him as equal perhaps, but again it fits the fact that Harry IS the main hero and that he is obviously the only one marked by Voldemort in any case. The word "mark" is used in the book on four occasions. It is said in PS/SS that Voldemort had fled and had left Harry with a mark. It is also said that when Lily died she left a mark on Harry (talking about her love), and the word mark is used both for the appearance in the sky after the world cup and the sign the Death Eaters have on their arms. There is also a fifth interpretation, which fits much better, and I will come to that later. I'd say Harry indeed is marked by Voldemort, but not with a stupid scar. BUT HE WILL HAVE POWERS THE DARK LORD KNOWS NOT... I heard many people saying that Harry's power over Voldemort is love. I don' t think so, because it doesn't make sense. First of all. Is anyone expecting Harry to walk up to Voldemort during the showdown of book 7, give him a hug and Voldemort is so washed away that he will fall on his knees, beg for forgiveness and afterwards lives on a farm and is happy ever after? Or is there really someone who can say that killing with love is possible, while love is suppose to be pure? Also we have two hints on what the power inside Harry might be. First, when Voldemort possesses Harry in the MoM, he is pushed out after Harry thinks something along the lines of "Yes, kill me. Then the pain will be over... And I'll see Sirius again." The feeling Harry has at that moment is not love. He went after Bella to kill her and couldn't do it. He is desperate. The second hint is that the power Harry has inside him is in the room in the Department of Mysteries that Harry wasn't able to open, behind the door that melted Harry's knife. Dumbledore describes the power as wonderful and – I don't know - it was something along the lines of scary, but that wasn't the word. Love is ONLY wonderful. Despair on the other hand can lead us to our best actions as much as to destruction. You are able to kill when you are desperate, and sometimes you need to be desperate to kill, when you are just an innocent child, like Harry is. I'd like you all to read the chapter, where the prophecy is revealed, carefully. Especially the part after Harry has heard the prophecy (it's rather short, only one or two pages). You will find that Harry is starting to feel desperate already. The word is actually standing there laughing in our faces.
I have to split the post. The board says it's too long...
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Post by Lilah on Nov 21, 2004 15:41:18 GMT -5
Continued... AND EITHER MUST DIE AT THE HAND OF THE OTHER, FOR NEITHER CAN LIVE WHILE THE OTHER SURVIVES. THE ONE WITH THE POWER TO VANQUISH THE DARK LORD WILL BE BORN WHEN THE SEVENTH MONTH DIES.Every time I read it, I believe a little less that that actually means they are both going to die. I in fact think it sounds more like one has to kill the other. It also means that it will destroy the one who survives. Before I explain. Even if Voldemort successfully kills Harry, he will lose everything he is. That also works the other way round. When Voldemort speaks the Death Curse on Harry, it rebounds on him and makes him fled barely alive. We are suppose to think that the reason Voldemort didn't die is that he was trying to become immortal and that some of the things he did actually worked. I think not. I think that some of Voldemort's essence actually got into Harry. I also think Voldemort partly knows that and that that is the reason why he wanted Harry's blood for his resurrection. Bella says that you have to be ready to hurt someone, before you can use the Crutiatus Curse successfully. It's said that every time you kill someone, you lose a part of yourself. I take that by the word. What if every time you speak the Death Curse onto someone you lose a part of your humanity. Okay, I didn't want to do what ifs, but I think that most of you agree with me anyway. ) So, what Voldemort transferred to Harry was not a part of his powers, but a part of his humanity. I have proof for that. Harry didn't get any characteristics of Voldemort. He got things of Tom Riddle. He can speak Parsel, a gift Tom has from Slytherin, so was born with. He has a thirst to prove himself, like a true Slytherin. All in all, Harry has all the qualities of a Slytherin, but at the same time everything he needs to be a good Gryffindor. That is why the Sorting Hat had problems sorting him. Harry has all the characteristics of a Gryffindor from birth and all the characteristics of a Slytherin from Tom Riddle (not Voldemort), which at first led me to the wrong conclusion that Harry might be the heir of Slytherin AND Gryffindor, which is nonsense, because JK already denied several times that Harry has anything to do with Slytherin. Also their wands have the same core, as if the second feather of Fawkes remembered Tom, when Harry was holding it. With killing an innocent child Voldemort lost the last bit of humanity, but as it didn't kill Harry, those characteristics live on in him, and that is why Voldemort didn't die. Because part of him wasn't effected by the curse, was in fact protected by Lily's love. The rest of him, the part that is Voldemort, not Tom, only a shadow. The Death Curse didn't kill him. The Death Curse separated him. The part that is not human and therefor cannot be killed (Voldemort), from the part that IS human and can be killed (Tom), protected by Lily's love. The twinkle in Dumbledore's eyes in GoF can now be easily explained. When Harry tells him that Voldemort used his blood for the resurrection, Dumbledore realised that Voldemort renewed the bound to his own humanity, instead of trying to free himself from that entirely and become the monster that is Voldemort. And only because Voldemort renewed that bound, he is partly human, and can be killed again. Harry is now a part of Voldemort, like Tom is a part of Harry. It also means that Harry now has power over Voldemort as much as Voldemort has over him. They are equal. Voldemort now also possesses the gift of love from Lily, which he never had before. I personally think the "marking as equal" took place when Voldemort took Harry 's blood for resurrection, marking Harry with the bound between them. When Harry was a baby as much as in PS/SS Harry was protected by Lily's love. In CoS Harry had a lot of help from Fawkes. He was also not really fighting Voldemort, but Tom and a Basilisk. It is in GoF, after Voldemort has bounded them so close together, that Harry can defy Voldemort by himself. Also before that, Voldemort's thoughts were a shadow inside Harry's mind. It had nothing to do with Voldemort being stronger that Harry was now able to not only know when Voldemort was close or extremely angry, but also when he was happy, that he could actually look through Voldemort's eyes, it is because the link between them is stronger, now that they share a part of their humanity. It also explains why Harry is behaving so restless in OotP. Voldemort has taken a part of him away. He is now incomplete. You might now see why it is so important that Harry is desperate to kill Voldemort, or has to be. Because with killing Voldemort everything that Voldemort is must die. That goes also for the parts inside Harry. The parts he made his own characteristics. When Harry has killed Voldemort, Harry will lose all those powers, most likely along with the scar on his forehead. It will change Harry in the end, leave him with what he was born or even less. If Dumbledore had told him so from the start, if Dumbledore had arranged for him to have a good childhood, Harry would have a hard time to become desperate enough to kill someone and with him a part of himself.
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Post by Lilah on Nov 21, 2004 15:42:02 GMT -5
Concluded...
When Harry hears the name Tom Riddle in CoS, he has the feeling he knows the name, like Tom has been a long lost friend. That is not Harry, but Tom, who remembers his name. It doesn't make any other sense, because if Harry could remember his parents talking about Voldemort no matter how deep this memory sunk in, how good it was hidden, I doubt that James and Lily revered to Voldemort as Tom. It is also only in one scene where Voldemort is actually called Tom, and that is by Dumbledore, after he made sure that Voldemort had a part of Tom inside him again, but I'll get there later on. That also explains a lot of Dumbledore's behaviour. Especially in the first two books you get the feeling Dumbledore is watching him carefully, maybe afraid that the characteristics of Tom take over inside Harry and make him "evil". Or maybe because he can sense Tom inside Harry, like he can sense the link to Voldemort in OotP. At the end of CoS Dumbledore says to Harry that he knew Tom Riddle was responsible for the Basilisk attacking students. What he wanted to know - and I think he honestly didn't - was HOW Tom Riddle did it. I believe at first he thought it was Harry being used by Tom the way he used Ginny. Here is BTW the hint that no one spotted in CoS. So the reason why Dumbledore left Harry with the Dursleys was NOT to make him miserable, but because it was the only place save for him to stay. As a side effect it is part why he will be desperate enough to fight Voldemort. It's part of the prophecy, which Dumbledore cannot prevent. When Sirius died, Dumbledore was too late. He maybe wanted to save Sirius, but fate prevented that, because of the prophecy. Sirius was bound to die, and Dumbledore might have known that. That also might be the reason why he didn' t save Sirius from Azkaban. Because I still believe that Dumbledore could've known that Sirius was innocent. But with Sirius in Azkaban and Harry not knowing him, it might be that Dumbledore hoped Sirius' death would be unnecessary. That also explains where Hagrid had been between taking the baby and bringing it to the Dursleys. Dumbledore had told Hagrid to keep Harry save somewhere, not only to prepare the house for his arrival, but also to make sure he was reading the signs right. I do believe that he couldn't tell Harry for the exact reason he said. He couldn't bring himself to do it. And I also believe he knows what Harry is going through. Dumbledore defeated Grindelwald in 1945, and I think he did it the same way Harry will defeat Voldemort. That is why Voldemort is so afraid of Dumbledore. Not because Dumbledore is so powerful, but Dumbledore has the knowledge of how to defeat such a powerful dark wizard, while Voldemort has not. Harry isn't even close to vanquish Voldemort, and I believe he never will be. McGonagal explains that in PS/SS. She says that only because someone doesn't use certain powers doesn't mean he couldn't use them. I think a dark wizard is always more powerful than a good one, because the good wizard cannot bring himself to use the darkest magic, like Harry wasn't able to harm Bella, even though he really wanted to at that moment. I believe Harry cannot destroy Voldemort from the outside, but he can destroy him from the inside, which explains why the link between Harry and Voldemort is so important. Either Harry is capable of forcing his despair into Voldemort or it is a matter of who has the stronger character. Harry and Voldemort will partly merge with each other, with Voldemort and Harry outside and Tom in between, being their common core. Remember all the times it is mentioned that Voldemort and Harry have a lot in common? Well, they have, because part of their characteristics come from Tom Riddle. I believe that that is the way Dumbledore was able to defeat Grindelwald. Maybe it was prophesied that he would do that, like Harry is prophesied to vanquish Voldemort, or maybe Dumbledore did that out of free will. No matter which is true, Dumbledore knows what Harry will lose, even if he succeeds. Dumbledore says there are things worse then death. It seems to me he is revering to losing a part of yourself and still live on. Here comes the part you will burn me for. The only thing you don't want to hear and the only thing where Dumbledore took an active position in "harming" Harry. I'm sure it was very hard for him. You can say about Snape as much as you want. Snape never lied to Harry and he never tried to harm him beyond embarrassment. In PS/SS he prevents Harry from falling of the broom and in PoA he actually runs after the Dementors to save Harry's life, even though we all don't know if Snape is capable of producing a corporeal Patronus. And I kinda doubt it. He doesn't seem like a man with many happy memories to me. To the point... why is it that Snape prevents Harry from learning Occlumancy all of a sudden? I first thought that he didn't want Harry to learn it, because that's the only advantage he has over Harry. But then something stroke me hard on my forehead (I think it was my own flat hand *g*). It seems that Snape doesn't believe that Harry was so good in wearing off the Imperius Curse, but when Harry is able to turn around Snape's spell, Snape seems puzzled and astonished. Snape said before that Harry shouldn't have much problems with Occlumancy, when he can wear off an Imperius Curse, and we all know how fast Harry had learned that. I believe now the strength to do that doesn't come from Harry, but from Tom. Snape must've felt Tom's power behind it, which he should know as a former Death Eater. After Harry has beaten Snape ones, Snape makes it impossible for Harry to clear his mind, starting the spell on the point of two instead of three, making it really powerful, provoking Harry so he cannot concentrate, and Snape knew what he was doing. It wasn't Harry, it was Snape who sabotaged their lessons, and it is even said in the book, when Dumbledore says it was a mistake to leave it to Snape. It was not. It was Dumbledore's intention to widen the link between Harry and Voldemort, because that is the power Harry has over the Dark Lord. Maybe Dumbledore thought it's better to hurry and not wait for the link to widen on its own, because the war was starting and Dumbledore wanted to force the end. Is there another reason? I think not. Even without telling Harry everything Dumbledore has told him in the end, he could have told Harry (through McGonagal or Snape), that Voldemort was able to send Harry dreams, and that Harry shouldn't react on them. Because that was all Voldemort was able to do on a long distance. Dumbledore also says in the end, that Harry doesn't need Occlumancy, because he can drive Voldemort out with the power inside his heart, if necessary. The link is now complete. Dumbledore doesn't need to widen the link any more. It also explains why he wanted Snape to do the lessons. Because it was very believable that Snape would torture Harry, and no one would notice that there was a bigger plan behind it. Also Dumbledore might not want to harm Harry directly, couldn't bring himself to do it. Also Harry felt awful after the lessons, restless and violated. That is because Snape made sure that more parts of Harry could link with Voldemort, could be taken out of him, making him even more incomplete.
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Post by Madame Holmes on Nov 25, 2004 13:06:16 GMT -5
Wow! Excellent theory. In essence, because Voldemort transfered some of himself (i.e. some of Tom Riddles's powers) inadvertently to Harry when he tried to kill him, that is why he didn't die? Voldemort was so powerful that he, in a way, lived on in Harry a bit? Ew, creepy...
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Post by Lilah on Nov 30, 2004 11:39:29 GMT -5
Wow! Excellent theory. In essence, because Voldemort transfered some of himself (i.e. some of Tom Riddles's powers) inadvertently to Harry when he tried to kill him, that is why he didn't die? Voldemort was so powerful that he, in a way, lived on in Harry a bit? Ew, creepy... It is fascinating how I can write a miles long theory and you summon it up in two sentenses But yes, that is basically, what my theory says.
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Post by Madame Holmes on Dec 2, 2004 14:44:26 GMT -5
It'll be very interested to see how this battle to the death ends if your theory is correct. What would happen to Harry's scar if (or should I say when) he defeats Voldemort? Would it disappear? Would he still be a powerful wizard if he loses the transfered powers? Would he lose any of his powers at all?
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Post by Lilah on Dec 3, 2004 10:20:15 GMT -5
Well, if I'm correct than Harry would lose the scar. He would also lose his Slytherin half. He still would be powerful, but some of his powers would be lost. He wouldn't speak parsel anymore, that's for sure. He would also lose parts of makes him who he is, so not only his magic powers.
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Post by Madame Holmes on Dec 28, 2004 18:05:09 GMT -5
That is bound to make Harry rather delighted, but at the same time sad. How strangee it would be.
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